Arlington Texas Red Light Cameras - Not Legal Yellow Lights

[Steve]

I just got a ticket for a red-light camera in Arlington, Texas. This is as the corner of Cooper and Division streets, I was heading south and I remember the night the ticket was taken.

They send you something in the mail and there is a link to a video you can watch. Guess what, I watched the video and timed the yellow-light ... it's BELOW the limit that the state sets for a yellow light. I clocked it at about 3.25 seconds and the minimum that the state requires is 3.5 seconds.

I guess the city of Arlington is looking to get a little bit of extra revenue out of regular old folks like my by speeding up the yellow lights to an unsafe and illegally short duration to trap people like my who would otherwise not had run the red light.

I'll see if I can download the video and post it up here to see. It's a flash format so it's being difficult.

[Steve]

I said this before, but it's been proven that cities are speeding up yellow-lights just so they can cash in on tricking drivers to go through the red light.

http://www.motorists.org/blog/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/

[omegafiler]

Man, that sucks. Cities seriously need to find other ways to earn more revenue. This has nothing to do with safety. In fact, there are some cities that are taking down red light cameras because people aren't running lights in those areas and the city is no longer making enough money. It's just stupid. They need to make stuff like that illegal.

Are you going to try to fight it? Not sure how much luck you'd have, but wouldn't hurt to try I suppose.

[mburn039]

Statistics show that those cameras reduce the amount of side collision accidents because less people are running red lights but they increase rear end accidents by a higher percentage because people slam on their brakes at yellow lights. These things are dangerous and the whole idea should be banned. This is another example of political imperialism. The government has more power than the people who elected them due to bull**** red tape, clauses, and down right deception!

[Z71_guy]

they had those down in the twin cities and had to stop using them because the ticket needs to be issued to the person driving not the person who is registered to the vehicle

[Steve]

Well, for me, in this instance, I was driving and I did go through a red light, by about 1/10th of one second, I mean it was SOOOOOOOOOOOO close that it is too close to call.

My point is that the city of Arlington must know that they need to make money, and the video that I can watch, I timed the yellow-light and I never clocked it at 3.5 seconds, it was anywhere from 3.2 to 3.35 ... I know it's hard to time these things on the computer, but I never got 3.5 seconds.

[vncj96]

Like Z71 Guy said, they did that for a long time in MN but after numerous court appeals they removed it along with the cops that would clock cars and mail them the speeding tickets, as this doesnt prove who is actually driving the car, so if in your video they cant make it out that it is you keep pushing them to prove that its you.

[vncj96]

Steve, sjst out of curiousity where do they have your vehicle when they say you committed the infraction. To be issued the sitation for "running" a red light the majority of your vehicle must not have passed the halfway point of the intersection to be issued the sitation.

[Steve]

It was right on the line, it's possible that I was maybe 1 foot away from the white line ... hard to tell, I think I can download that photo and post it here.

[Steve]

Here is the photo. It got me going 38 MPH which is 55.73 Feet per Second.

So that works out to be the following if the yellow light was tripped early .... (the Trailblazer is roughly 16 feet long)

.2 seconds = 11 feet (most of the entire length of the vehicle)
.15 seconds = 7.75 feet (1/2 of the vehcile length)
.1 second = 5.5 feet (the entire engine compartment and front wheels)

Now, it's possible that being a mere human that I am not able to correctly respond to the video by clicking on a stop-watch ... that's the human element ... I suggest that people are NOT robots and while I constantly measure 3.35 to 3.4 on the stopwatch ... if it's that close then it's not worth giving a ticket ..

[Steve]

I called the company that does the video for the city, they would not allow me to download the video so I can play it frame by frame in a video tool, that way I could tell exactly how long the light was yellow for. That's really bad if you ask me, I can't defend myself properly if I don't have access to the source files.

The company that runs these red light cameras:
American Traffic Solutions
14861 N Scottsdale Rd., Suite 109
Scottsdale, AZ 85254 USA
480-368-0900


Their website is www.ViolationInfo.com (http://www.ViolationInfo.com), which name I find to be very offensive ... it's an indication that they presume guilt and you have to prove that you're innocent ... but whatever. They're using a tool called Axsis VPS (Violation Processing System), I find the whole thing to be very big-brotherish.

[Steve]

This is really disturbing actually. The company's website actually talks about how cities and municipalities can make cash and how they will help advance them money ... so much for the argument that it's not all about making money for the city.


Public Finance
Revenue Advancing™, an innovative program offered by the Public Finance Solutions Department of ATS, provides a way for communities to convert their past-due receivables into cash, services or equipment before the receivables are collected. The cash then can be added to the general fund or converted into additional direct services by the municipality, including red-light or speed enforcement programs, parking meters or other equipment. From parking, court fees, fines, ordinance violations, judgments, photo enforcement and other public safety related collections, ATS Public Finance Solutions convert a community’s receivables into a cash advance while letting the municipality share in the upside of future collections.

ATS also provides customized leasing and lease purchase programs for photo enforcement needs. The programs provide flexible service offerings tailored to a community’s needs at the lowest possible cost.
For more information email commercial@atsol.com (commercial@atsol.com).

http://www.atsol.com/services-public-finance.html (5/26/2009)

[Bikeman]

Yup, those things are horrible. Here in Charlotte (NC) they put up redlight cameras and speed cameras. I believe the fine was $50 if it got ya. It was supposed to be generating extra money for the city. Turns out after the adminstrating company collected all of their fees, Charlotte was getting about $2 per violation. They were removed after the 1 year contract was up. Thankfully

[bradfry]

out here in az the cameras have taken over. our red light cameras are in almost every city and our freeways all have them running up and down the median and shoulder. 11mph over and they flash. there are some loop holes and interesting facts to these cameras though.

[jediracer]

Middletown, Ohio has red light cameras. My wife tried pushing a yellow and got caught by a camera. The ticket and picture were mailed to me. Both of our vehicles are registered in my name so I got the ticket, 100 bucks!

Yesterday I was in a left turn lane about 3 cars back and the light turned red. The 2 cars in front of me had their picture taken while they were clearing the intersection. They both were beyond the line waiting to turn left way before the light was red or even yellow. I'd be pissed if got a ticket clearing an interesection!

[jmonte3]

yep the red light cams and speed cams are obnoxious, we have a few in our city in louisiana...but it seems that they are taken over like in az because they are installing them at more and more intersections everyday...They are a complete eye sore first off...2nd when your nearing an intersection that has a stop/speed camera you get all paranoid about running the light or going to fast which can cause other accidents...not too long ago my cousin had his car stolen and the person who stole his car ran a speed camera and a picture of the crook and ticket was sent to his house, i think they had a hard time getting the speeding ticket removed too...idk its just a lame way to make extra cash, we also have speed vans in laffy...they just sit next to the road and catch ppl speeding...the gov is whack soon enough will have cameras in our homes:sign0173:

[Rossy]

Next they can mail us all tickets for all those times we broke the law when there weren't any cops or cameras around. :eek:

[Bikeman]

yeah man, big brother, I hope they don't put cameras in homes, I think there are some laws that may affect me bedroom activities:gasp:Of course they may give me the footage. nah...J/K I have my own cameras for that:whip:

[redneckarmyMP]

they have those here in huntsville alabama but cant use em to catch speeders or red light runners.only for monitoring traffic flow during rush hour.as said before it was ruled that if youre getting a ticket there has to be an actual person with a ticket book to catch you doing it.

[Crakums_GT]

I remember them putting a whole bunch of cameras up in Tucson, AZ. I luckily never got a ticket but I know some people who did and they definitely had some yellow lights that would only seem to flash for a second or two and then turn red. I've almost been rear ended a couple times there because I wanted to make sure I stopped before the red. At least they don't give tickets for people sitting in the intersection waiting to turn though. I've done that many many times and never received a ticket for it.

-Greg

[route66paul]

Some cities were sending out tickets for people running yellow lights and taking the fines that people paid. This was pure BS and a bunch of people would not even send anything in, there was a lawsuit with one city warning NOT to issue warrents. The city is still sending them out, stupid people will pay.

[CarpenterGuy]

wow that really sucks. i hate it when the government tries to get even the smallest amount of money out of folks.

[Steve]

Looks like I missed my window to fight it. They only give you a short period to mail in the paperwork to fight it (99% of the letter is about how you are guilty and how you should just pay and here's where to send the money, etc." But you can send something in for an administrative review, but if this is a ticket then you should always be allowed to fight it, I mean what if you're out of town, you're just automatically guilty? This is really more than a scam, it's unconstitutional.

[Bikeman]

Yup, here in Charlotte when we had the cameras, the citations were non-contestable (not sure thats a word) but on the plus side they were a fine only, so there was no points on your license or higher inssurance rates. The city made it known from the get go that the cameras were there to make more money for the city. Glad they are gone.

Sorry for your ticket

[Steve]

Looks like there is some backlast, there is a guy in College Station trying to put a bill before the voters to ban red-light cameras in Texas. That bill would go before the voters and it's almost certain to be a slam-dunk against red-light cameras.

http://www.kbtx.com/local/headlines/46864312.html

[Steve]

Some dude is suing the city of College Station and trying to get a referendum on the dox for that city i guess.

http://www.civilviolation.com/

[Steve]

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/27/2784.asp

At least two Texas cities are openly defying the will of the state House of Representatives which earlier this month voted 107-36 to ban red light cameras (http://www.gmtruckclub.com/news/27/2773.asp). Texas lawmakers, unlike their counterparts in other states (http://www.gmtruckclub.com/news/27/2769.asp), decided to allow cities with existing red light camera contracts to keep issuing citations until those contracts expired on their own. The proposed law would then prohibit any new contracts after June 1.

This week, the cities of Arlington and Southlake took a slap at that generous exception. Arlington's city council on Tuesday unanimously decided to change the city's five-year contract with American Traffic Solutions into a twenty-year contract. Long-term photo contracts are rare in the US as cities -- such as Scottsdale, Arizona (http://www.gmtruckclub.com/news/18/1815.asp) and Washington, DC (http://www.gmtruckclub.com/news/26/2610.asp) -- prefer to have the ability to switch contractors to ensure a competitive bidding process. Arlington decided to bind future councils for nearly twenty years after a debate that lasted a full twenty-five seconds.

"I'd like to make a motion to approve 7C5 with the additional stipulation that we limit staff's ability to negotiate and execute the modification with American Traffic Solutions to include an out for the city," the only city councilman to speak on the matter said.

The Southlake City Council likewise ordered the city attorney to work on a long-term contract extension with Australia's Redflex Traffic Systems. If the experience of other states is any guide, however, Arlington and Southlake could find their clever move backfire. In a similar circumstance last month, a number of Montana state lawmakers were incensed by cities attempting to adopt new contracts before a legislative deadline for a camera ban containing a large exception.

"We saw a couple municipalities rush to get contracts signed before the effective date of the bill -- which I found offensive," Montana state Senator John Brueggeman (R-Polson) said.

Montana legislators fired back by stripping the exceptions and imposing a total ban (http://www.gmtruckclub.com/news/27/2754.asp).

Arlington city leaders are not only defying the state House, they may also be defying the will of voters. Although the city's residents have never had the opportunity to vote on the issue of red light cameras directly, they came close in February 2003. Fifty-eight percent of voters had shot down a bond package known as Proposition 6, the first time a bond proposal for expanding street capacity had ever been rejected in the city. The most controversial aspect of the proposition was setting aside extra money for surveillance "traffic cameras" which critics at the time said would serve as a precursor to red light cameras. Nine months later, the bond measure was split into two distinct provisions and placed once again on the ballot. When asked in a separate vote to spend $400,000 for "traffic management cameras," 64 percent of voters said "no."

The full Texas Senate must now weigh in on the question of whether red light cameras should be banned. If state senators disagree with the House attempt to ban cameras, a conference committee will be called to work out a compromise measure before sending the final bill to the governor for his signature.

A copy of the Arlington proposal for a longer contract is available in a 30k PDF file at the source link below.

[Steve]

Just FYI, I still have not paid this "civil violation" and I don't have any plan on doing so.

From the information that I have seen, they plan for a certain number of non-payments and they just let them go, trying to collect on these is not worth their time. They'll spend $50 over time to try to collect $75.

[tbplus10]

I havent had a red light ticket, yet, but if I get one I'll handle it the same as yourself.
After looking at much of the available information I have a real problem with a civilian company sending me tickets for legal infractions. To me this sends a message that anyone desireing to be their own authority can begin arresting and ticketing people for their own made-up laws.

I have issues with the local toll authority issueing tickets for toll booth jumpers also, the toll road and attending equipment was purchased from the city so they wouldnt have to spend the money to run it, yet the city/state repairs the roads and the toll authority collects tolls and issues tickets to toll jumpers, is this a private owned road or a public owned road?

[Steve]

Looks like I missed my window to fight it. They only give you a short period to mail in the paperwork to fight it (99% of the letter is about how you are guilty and how you should just pay and here's where to send the money, etc." But you can send something in for an administrative review, but if this is a ticket then you should always be allowed to fight it, I mean what if you're out of town, you're just automatically guilty? This is really more than a scam, it's unconstitutional.

They give you 15 days to contest it and they recommend that you give 10 days to have your payment arrive, thus giving you 5 days to get the payment in the mail. That's absurd, seriously ... not only are they speeding up the yellow-lights to trap people into running the red, but they are then saying that the money has to ARRIVE in 15 days or less or they will give you an extra $25 fine.

What a scam, makes me so mad just thinking about it.

[Z07]

I'm not saying this is the case only that it is a possibility. The playback speed of the video may not match exactly the record time. You would need an exemplar recording of a known good time source. For example, if you could record a video of a countdown timer ticking off a minute then play it back to see if it takes a minute to play back the scene. It could be that the yellow is exactly the state minimum in duration but the video playback doesn't show it.

[Steve]

I'm not saying this is the case only that it is a possibility. The playback speed of the video may not match exactly the record time. You would need an exemplar recording of a known good time source. For example, if you could record a video of a countdown timer ticking off a minute then play it back to see if it takes a minute to play back the scene. It could be that the yellow is exactly the state minimum in duration but the video playback doesn't show it.

Well, the recording was in real-time with a certain frames/second playback. That's now how these tape systems work, they record in real-time and playback however they are saved at. Every test that I've done shows it in real-time, and if that were altered, then it's falsified evidence. We're dealing with something that's just 3.5 seconds, so 3.25 would be nearly 10% off, not a trivial matter. I'm not talking about 3.49 vs. 3.5 seconds.

[traf2009]

I know for a fact that Texas allows for online traffic schoo (http://www.traffic101.com)l to dismiss speeding tickets and to keep insurance premiums from going up. If you've not taken advantage of this within 18 months, you should see if you qualify for it. Trust me, it will save you time and money. Good luck.

[Vanplor.Crucible]

I was a cop in MN before going active... I don't know Texas bar very well, but by MN law if you were past the 'line' or pedestrian crossing by 12 inches or more during a yellow light in a constant motion than you are committed to the course of action to continue through the intersection, regardless of if the light changes at 13 inches. Meaning that if the light went red while you where already in the crosshairs than you can plead ignorance as you are a regular guy and there is no reason that you should know how long that yellow light is going to be lit.

Again, I do not know about Texas however. If you have any cops or prosecutors that you know from the area I would advise asking them,,, they can tell you how the guilty ones get off, and trust me, they do all the time.