The 10 cars that brought down Detroit!

[1st Synthetics]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31688479/ns/business-autos/

[detailjohn]

No Comment....:grrrrrr:

[2COR517]

I generally disagree with the article, which I believe I read quite some time ago. Anyway, for the most part, these were good/great cars, especially the K car and Cherokee. The Kcar saved Chrysler from going down the tubes. It was very innovative at the time. The platform developed into several popular cars, including the minivan. The Explorer had issues as mentioned, and the Taurus has to be one of the most popular cars ever. The Cimmaron was a joke, the Aztec was super ugly. The Citation wasn't great looking, but OK for the time. The Fairmont was not pretty from day one. The Detroit problem wasn't so much bad cars, but they just didn't keep up with innovation and quality improvements like Japan. Couple the lack of innovation, America's lust to have the best whether I can afford it or not, throw in a couple of super greedy unions, and look where they are.

[TRPLXL2]

I didn't recognize half of the cars on that list, BUT my parents did have a Vega way back and my dad still comments to this day that it was the worst car he ever owned. A friend of mine still has her Aztek although she gets teased all of the time for it, she has the tent that hooks on the back of it making it like a mini pop up camper. It's kind of cool actually, but definately not something that I would have payed money for.

[1st Synthetics]

My wife use to have an Aztek and we loved it. Just thought I should add that.:great:

[hunky]

X2 on the cherokee.We drove those for years at work,off road all day,a** deep in mud. Gas miliage was not great but that 4.0L straight 6cyl. will run forever.

[catbert]

There is a total of one decent car in the roup. It's hard to defend cars like the Cimmaron.

[2ToNe04]

all those cars are effin ugly including the new camaro

[catbert]

There is a total of one decent car in the roup. It's hard to defend cars like the Cimmaron.

You're right - there might be one decent car in the group, the Jeep. The rest are just bad for a number of reasons. The K Car, for example, might have saved Chrysler, but it was a bad, marginally terrible platform, and had weak motors and defective automatic transmissions. With the last Taurus, Ford made the best selling car in America into a loser in just 2 years...etc.

[Hoss2500]

There have been some vehicles that made me say WTF were they thinking?:neutral:


But I think the main problem was Unions and huge Legacy costs.


"Cradle to the Grave" treatment of employees doesn't work forever.


An employee works for GM for 20 years and retires, but keeps getting paid and health insurance etc.


Eventually you don't have enough employees paying in, to cover their own costs PLUS the retired guys.....



Unions had a time and place.

That time and place isn't in 2009.

Just my $.02

Hoss2500

[2COR517]

But I think the main problem was Unions and huge Legacy costs.

Unions had a time and place.

That time and place isn't in 2009.

Just my $.02

Hoss2500

I couldn't agree with you more. Unions protect lazy workers, and line the pockets of the union leaders.

Once OSHA came into play, no need for unions. I don't what year that took off.

[5speedsilverado]

the Vega was awesome, my dad had one with a 350 swapped in it, it was a great little car. and the Cherokee was a great off road vehicle, and still is

[1st Synthetics]

Please stop the Union bashing, that has nothing to do with this tread. I highly doubt either of you have been in a union or know much about them. I am a lifelong Union member of the IBEW and Unions are a good thing. My Electrical business employs only Union members and they are all great workers and well trained. And the part about unions protecting lazy workers is a UAW and teacher thing not a union in whole thing. I agree if a worker does not perform they should be let go not protected, witch by the way does not happen in my union. It's just a fact that the UAW is the face of the union to the public and the bad things people think happen in all unions, witch just is not true. So please you do not know what you are saying so stop!

You know I just thought of something that just happened last fall. This is based on the comment about OSHA. 1st OHSA is under funded and they do not police jobs like they one did. My brother was working on a job in Detroit(a union job) and next door was a different job(a non-union job). Everyone on my brothers job was told to stay away from the job next door due to safety concerns. Loading drywall onto the 5th floor not tied off, standing on the forks of forklifts instead of using lifts or ladders, holes in floor not covered, elevator opening with no barriers, i could go on and on with the so called non existent OHOA vialations. the only way OHSA even shows up on a job is if someone dies. Well guess what, they showd up on that job when a guy fell through one of those non covered holes in the roof and fell down the 5 story elevater shaft and died. Yes acedents do happen but they happen a lot more on these non union jobs where people are not as trained and saftey is thrown out the window. I know that I want to come home to my wife and 4 kids at the end of the day, don't you?

[Hoss2500]

UAW = Too much Legacy costs for GM/Ford/Chrysler to be successful long term.

That's my only point.


UAW = death of the American Auto Industry.


In your Union, if you get laid off, do you still get paid for months and months like they do in the UAW Union?

I doubt it.


I still don't believe Unions are needed in this day and age. I can not be convinced that they serve any purpose other than to sustain themselves.

Just my opinion.


Now....let's talk about something we can ALL agree on......Which brand of oil is the best?


:lol:

[2COR517]

So please you do not know what you are saying so stop!

Easy killer, you don't much about me.

[pontiacGTP123]

...................

[catbert]

There have been some vehicles that made me say WTF were they thinking?:neutral:


But I think the main problem was Unions and huge Legacy costs.


"Cradle to the Grave" treatment of employees doesn't work forever.


An employee works for GM for 20 years and retires, but keeps getting paid and health insurance etc.


Eventually you don't have enough employees paying in, to cover their own costs PLUS the retired guys.....



Unions had a time and place.

That time and place isn't in 2009.

Just my $.02

Hoss2500

The unions didn't design any of those cars, or any of the other bad ideas from Detroit. Management is responsible for approving concepts, designs, engineering, and most importantly, union contracts. When they signed the union contracts, they knew what the legacy costs would be. What they didn't count on was (foreign) competition, and loss of THEIR (Big Three) ability to set retail prices to cover up their stupidity. I negotiated union contract for years, on the company side. I would have been fired every time out if I presented contracts like the Big Three approved.

There's my 2 cents (and worth every penny :money:)

[vms4evr]

Hmmm... I've seen other articles listing American car failures. Some of these articles are written by clueless people who know squat about cars. Some are pretty good.

The Jeep. What kinda of retard would call that a failure? From it's days of being an IH invention. Then becomes Jeep. The Cherokee to this day is still basically that same box design. They sold more of those things than you can shake a stick at. Along with the CJs. The only value coming out of American Motors was Jeep. Should we forget the Gremlin, only to be replaced by the Pacer. AMC made 1 cool car. The Javelin.

The Ford Taurus probably sold more of those during its era than any other car made. That and the F150 trucks. Bread and butter. It doesn't matter if a Taurus is ugly or boring. Does anyone think a Toyota Corolla is sexy? They sell though. Plain, boring, and they work. Some people only care about basic transportation.

The K-car did save Chrysler. Those are ugly and boring too. The minivan was a great idea. They sold like crazy. The next generation station wagon.

GM has made some crap, just like any other auto maker. I had Pintos instead of Vegas because the Vega was such a pile of junk. It was US auto makers first forray into cheap cars to compete with the Japanese cars. Our auto makers weren't government subsidized while taking on the attack of cheap imports. They also were lazy, arrogant and ill-prepared to compete in that market.

When you have been around long enough. You will always have failures. The question is how did you recover from those? What have you done that was good? It's easy to take shots at any car maker, foreign and domestic. When the Japanese showed up on our radar they sold cheap, junk, crap regardless of what it was. They learned and became a force to be reckoned with. Wait until the Chinese figure it out and improve their quality....

['92Silverado]

:slap:
I don't think the jeep cherokee deserves to be in there

[RedMonteSS]

Just remember that MSNBC is part of NBC, which is a very liberal news company. They love to take shots at the obvious, and kick companies and people in the nuts when they are down. They will never mention, however, the top 10 reasons NBC is failing

[2COR517]

Just remember that MSNBC is part of NBC, which is a very liberal news company. They love to take shots at the obvious, and kick companies and people in the nuts when they are down. They will never mention, however, the top 10 reasons NBC is failing

Ooooooh, can we try naming them? I'll start

Matt Lauer

[David8790]

Just remember that MSNBC is part of NBC, which is a very liberal news company. They love to take shots at the obvious, and kick companies and people in the nuts when they are down. They will never mention, however, the top 10 reasons NBC is failing
GE is part of the problem lol