GM Truck Club Forum banner
21 - 40 of 45 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
Now I'm going down that rabbit hole reading up on the '7060. Here's some more info on it...

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I feel for you having gone thru similar in past. As I mentioned I went down the rabbit hole of trying to understand the data stream to debug the problem and did eventually figure it out - but as you mention it can be very confusing as it's not easy to separate cause from effect. People like PlaywithTBI and others on gearhead-efi know this stuff but I imagine it didn't come easy or quick. I only got as far as I did because I'm anal retentive and an engineer - if not the suburban I'd had been obsessed with some other puzzle.

My advice based on my experience. If you are going to try to use scan data as a tool to figure out what's going on you need to be able to capture the data stream and dump to something like excel to plot the data of interest. Looking at values on a screen wasn't helpful to me. You need to see what flags are being set, what cell you are in, how the O2 is responding in response to changes in Int/trim, etc. I'd focus on cold start idle and hot idle as they are simplest/easiest to understand. I'd watch the O2, temp, Int, closed loop flags and see if the O2 is appearing to respond to changes in trim and or trim just rails without O2 responding, trim never changes, etc. btw - I did not find this path to be instant gratification - eventually was helpful but took a while for me.

That said, at end of day the ECM/BIN isn't changing and if it used to work something has changed in engine. An input/sensor to ECM is different than it was or the engine isn't responding to directions as it was.
A few thoughts
- check and clean your grounds - there are something like 3 or 4. Firewall, by CTS (I think this one is for ECM), battery, and? Sensor inputs to ECM could be noisy and ECM having problems with getting good inputs.
  • seems unlikely but I didn't notice that you checked your fuel pressure. I had a problem once where marginal fuel pressure (it was ~ 11psi) caused idle enrichment to kick in. Mine was idling poorly so doesn't sound like your problem but marginal fuel pressure can result in weird problems as ECM has no feedback on fuel pressure.
  • I assume you checked timing with light on distributor install. There's a connector which has to be disconnected or connected, I can't remember. Just mentioning as memory is when messing with Tunerpro the data stream on timing isn't right ? perhaps PlaywithTBI or a google would know
  • check that the throttle adjustment on cable is not holding open the blades a bit, I assume you likely did this when new TBI install
  • perhaps try another O2 sensor, it's not impossible that a new part is not good. maybe even a 1 wire to see if you have original manifolds as they aren't too expensive - always easy to spend someone else's money...
Good luck
Thanks for the reply!

I agree data capture could be helpful in the debug..

It may be the case that the truck was always open loop at idle and now some sensor value is causing it to fail smog, the internal engine components have degrades causing more emissions or the smog limit values have been tightened up over time.....

I remember on the smog test my HC limit was always 250 in the past....
Now I look and it at BAR is only 132 per the ASM 5015 standards or 105 per the ASM 2525 standards...
I guess the standard applied depends on the equipment at the smog test station......

It seems the the max HC limit is 150 now to comply with Health and Safety....and the limit may be decrease by 30%.......

From BAR:
*** Pass/Fail Standards - Emission standards used to determine if a vehicle passes the emission inspection. A vehicle passes if the emission levels are equal to or less than the standards for HC, CO, and NO for ASM 5015 and ASM 2525.

Note: If test data on emission pass/fail rates or gross polluter identification rates indicate adjustments are required, the emission standards may be increased or decreased by the bureau by 30% or by the following tolerances, or standards may be set for any specific vehicle and engine configuration which the bureau determines has excessive errors of commission or omission, whichever is necessary to comply with Section 44001.5 of the Health and Safety Code. HC = 150ppm, CO = 1.50%, NO = 350ppm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Hello Peter-

How does the TPS of 2.34% equate to TPS Voltage at idle?
I am wondering if the Initial TPS value is set too high?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
How does the TPS of 2.34% equate to TPS Voltage at idle?
I am wondering if the Initial TPS value is set too high?
There's an algorithm in the program where, FWIU, .5V = 0% up to 4.5V = 100% or something like that. So, a little over 1V would be your magic number of 2.34%. Keep in mind with Hexadecimal when you input a specific number, it'll round it up/down in order to fit it in the designated place holders. I know - weird stuff. The problem with adjusting your TPS voltage instead of the limit in the calibration, is you'll throw off other equations that depend on accurate feed back like "off idle" and "flooded mode", etc.

I'd concentrate on data logging and drilling down on any anomalies you may find.

I just ordered the ALDL to USB cable: OBD Diagnostics, Inc. - OBD2 All-In-One Scan Tool w/ USB
and downloaded TunerPro RT.
That's the one I use too with TP. Remember 12 pin OBDI is for 87 - 95, the 16 pin is for 96+ OBDII
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
There's an algorithm in the program where, FWIU, .5V = 0% up to 4.5V = 100% or something like that. So, a little over 1V would be your magic number of 2.34%. Keep in mind with Hexadecimal when you input a specific number, it'll round it up/down in order to fit it in the designated place holders. I know - weird stuff. The problem with adjusting your TPS voltage instead of the limit in the calibration, is you'll throw off other equations that depend on accurate feed back like "off idle" and "flooded mode", etc.

I'd concentrate on data logging and drilling down on any anomalies you may find.


That's the one I use too with TP. Remember 12 pin OBDI is for 87 - 95, the 16 pin is for 96+ OBDII
Thanks, I ordered the 12 pin and it should arrive by this Saturday!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
You can also download the corresponding definition .adx file so you can data log in TunerPro RT with an ALDL to USB cable on your laptop to see exactly what's happening when you have issues. It has playback and graphing capabilities for this.
Agree, I would capture scans in truck and then replay the .adx in house to try to analyze. Easiest way to get to time frame of interest in data. Graphing on TunerPro is nice but hard to see many variables or search for specific changes so you can export to a .csv and import to excel if that much of a geek. Net- very powerful tool to analyze and/or get lost
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
Agree, I would capture scans in truck and then replay the .adx in house to try to analyze. Easiest way to get to time frame of interest in data. Graphing on TunerPro is nice but hard to see many variables or search for specific changes so you can export to a .csv and import to excel if that much of a geek.
FYI - TP saves the log as an .xdl file.

You'll see in the upper left of the log graph screen a slide bar where you can adjust the "Time Range" so you can drill down to fractions of a second once you capture the time frame where your issue is. I use spreadsheets to tune VE & SA tables where the cells have formulas which take your .csv log file and modify them to desired parameters. You smooth out the neighboring cells and just copy and paste directly in to TP. Here's an example of a BLM (Block Learn Multiplier) for VE (Volumetric Efficiency) to achieve proper AFR (~128). This is a short log but, you can get the idea. Another plus is TP can log as long as you want or have space on your hard drive, ha ha.

169856


Here's a copy of an SA table after tuning. Note: this engine has a fairly mild cam (.484/.468") and aluminum "Fast Burn" heads which idles better in Open Loop so, I just flatten out the lower RPM/MAP and get a smoother idle.
169857


I guess my point is, TunerPro RT v5xxx is a powerful tool for tuning and troubleshooting plus, it's free (or a suggested donation)!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
"TPS To Enable Open Loop Idle". It's set for 2.34% (red arrow) which means you'll go into OL when your TPS is below that and you're at idle speed.
PlaywithTBI - I may be confused but I thought the TPS variable for idle closed/open loop was a TPS value at which if TPS was above, the ECM would not use the closed loop idle qualifiers, mode, etc. That is, unless throttle was closed "enough" it didn't consider the engine in an idle mode.
I opened TP for my Suburban - 93 5.7L w/ 4L60E - 16168625 with BDJZ. I'm always confused on the terminology here but think a $E6 mask/definition file is correct. In mine, there is an "Upper Limit for Closed Loop" in the Closed Loop Idle Qualifiers but didn't find a "TPS To Enable Open Loop Idle".
Given that different people have made/commented these masks over time - I'm not sure the naming convention is always going to be the same for the same variable?
That is, not sure if these are same or polar opposites and Scubas bin is indicating there is a TPS value for which lower than that it drops out of closed loop? - I would think if true that's the definition of a ECM not running closed loop at idle?
Screenshot (1).png



Scuba - 10 sec seems to be a typical maximum time for system to try to satisfy qualifiers before giving up on staying in closed loop. I've read in posts similar comments previously. You mention that when coming to idle it seems to drop out of closed loop after 10 secs. If it is always 10 sec - it might indicate that it's trying to stay in closed loop and something is failing and it's giving up?
While waiting for your cable - I would reiterate cleaning/checking grounds if you haven't done so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
I'm always confused on the terminology here but think a $E6 mask/definition file is correct. In mine, there is an "Upper Limit for Closed Loop" in the Closed Loop Idle Qualifiers but didn't find a "TPS To Enable Open Loop Idle".
Given that different people have made/commented these masks over time - I'm not sure the naming convention is always going to be the same for the same variable?
Yeah, different people developed these mask files and made up their own terminology. Others have "improved" upon them through the years but, sometimes common sense has to interpret the tables and/or values. Your "Upper Limit for Closed Throttle" (not Closed Loop) is the limit for which the PCM will think you're still at idle. If over that limit, it thinks you're accelerating.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #32 ·
OK, you have a 16147060 PCM and a BCC (.bin) AXRD. In TunerPro RT you use a mask file to make sense of what's there. The file is written in Hexadecimal, that's what the $ stands for. So, you download your .bin file and the corresponding .xdf (mask). In your case it's the $85. Then you can look at your calibration to see how it's programmed. Your AXRD .bin has these parameters, including "TPS To Enable Open Loop Idle". It's set for 2.34% (red arrow) which means you'll go into OL when your TPS is below that and you're at idle speed.

View attachment 169851

I'm guessing something else is causing your emissions issue since, as you said, it passed before. YMMV

FYI, I found these files on GearHead-EFI.COM



You can also download the corresponding definition .adx file so you can data log in TunerPro RT with an ALDL to USB cable on your laptop to see exactly what's happening when you have issues. It has playback and graphing capabilities for this.
Here's an example of when I data logged to find out why the engine was surging at around 2100 RPM while cruising. It turned out the ICM was throwing random pulses to the ECM which, in turn, changed SA and VE based on the RPMs it thought it was running. Note the RPM 4775 in red.

View attachment 169852
Hello-

I have not found the correct .bin file yet (AXRD).

These are the files I have found so far:

169862

Anyone know where I can get the AXRD bin file?

Also, If I am going to have to revise the prom what would be the best recommended set up?


Thanks!
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
Anyone know where I can get the AXRD bin file?
I see you're posting on gearhead-efi.com, here's a link to .bin files there. Scroll down about halfway.

Also, If I am going to have to revise the prom what would be the best recommended set up?
There are multiple options;
1. You can get an emulator like the Ostrich 2.0 or APU1, etc
2. You can get an adapter, use a 27SF512 flash chip and the Burn2 with TunerPro RT
3. You can pay someone (like Dave w) to do it for you.
YMMV

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I see you're posting on gearhead-efi.com, here's a link to .bin files there. Scroll down about halfway.


There are multiple options;
1. You can get an emulator like the Ostrich 2.0 or APU1, etc
2. You can get an adapter, use a 27SF512 flash chip and the Burn2 with TunerPro RT
3. You can pay someone (like Dave w) to do it for you.
YMMV

Thanks for the reply and the link! That was very helpful...

Ok, trying to wrap my head around which options/hardware would be best......
I am not sure I need emulator at this time? Just want to program a chip to keep in open loop @ idle...of course this will probably change once I get into this more....

I see the Burn2 is on backorder...... is there an alternative?

Which adapter is correct for my application (GP1, GP1 package, G2, GX switching adapter)? I would like to avoid soldering if possible.....

Not sure what my original chip is and why the 27sf512 would be better?


Thanks for all replies and help!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #37 ·
FWIW - I’d focus on using TP to figure out what’s wrong and fix it vs reprogramming prom to ignore it. likely faster to find/fix than mod
Hello-
I will start the data logging activity today.
I loaded the following files into tunerpro:

169866


and now I need to figure out how to data log from the truck....I will start searching for tutorial videos on how to begin.....


I clicked on the Scalers tab in tunerpro and am thinking there are probably calibration values that are keeping the truck in open loop at idle....
If this is the case, then I guess I will need a custom chip burn to modify the values....or am I wrong?

169865
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
984 Posts
Not sure what my original chip is and why the 27sf512 would be better?
Your original chip is an EPROM (probably a 27Cxxx?) which needs to be erased with UV light then "burned" with the new .bin. Sometimes, while erasing or burning it'll fail and you'll need another chip (they're not being made anymore either). It's old school where not many guys have the equipment (Dave w still does, I think) The 27SF512 is an EEPROM flash chip where you can flash the new .bin as many times as you want.

and now I need to figure out how to data log from the truck....I will start searching for tutorial videos on how to begin.....
Yeah, there's all kinds of info out there. You need to configure your device manager in windows to correspond with TP
With your ALDL cable connected to your laptop (it doesn't need to be hooked up to the truck), click on "Tools/Preferences/Data Acq./Emulation tab. Click on Configure Plug-in Component and ensure you have these selections with the same com port as your lap top.
TP COM Port settings.JPG


Too bad you have a 7060 PCM, I have a 7747 with a ZIF (Zero Insertion Force) socket soldered in it to accept the SST 27SF512 flash chip, 6 chips, and the Moates Burn2 but, I don't wanna break up the set. You may be able to find some equipment on gearhead-efi "Buy-Sell-Trade" forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Your original chip is an EPROM (probably a 27Cxxx?) which needs to be erased with UV light then "burned" with the new .bin. Sometimes, while erasing or burning it'll fail and you'll need another chip (they're not being made anymore either). It's old school where not many guys have the equipment (Dave w still does, I think) The 27SF512 is an EEPROM flash chip where you can flash the new .bin as many times as you want.


Yeah, there's all kinds of info out there. You need to configure your device manager in windows to correspond with TP
With your ALDL cable connected to your laptop (it doesn't need to be hooked up to the truck), click on "Tools/Preferences/Data Acq./Emulation tab. Click on Configure Plug-in Component and ensure you have these selections with the same com port as your lap top.
View attachment 169867

Too bad you have a 7060 PCM, I have a 7747 with a ZIF (Zero Insertion Force) socket soldered in it to accept the SST 27SF512 flash chip, 6 chips, and the Moates Burn2 but, I don't wanna break up the set. You may be able to find some equipment on gearhead-efi "Buy-Sell-Trade" forum.
I checked out the gearhead EFI buy/sell this morning and didn't find much...
I will hopefully get some time after work to get the cable configured and connect to the truck...

Here is a photo of the ECM chip:
169882


20210719_102622.jpg
 
21 - 40 of 45 Posts
Top